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Shooting animations / Ranks



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#1 Marcin

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 05:31 PM

1) Is it possible to make emotes from the firing animations? I especially like the animation while firing a phaser rifle (which looks like aiming down the sight) so it would be great to use it without actually shooting.
This is what I mean;
Posted Image


2) Is the rank limit changed? If I recall correctly the maximum was 20. I need to know this because I was planning to add the following ranks without screwing up the game;

Deep Space Nine NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) Ranks:

Crewman
Petty Officer, 3rd-Class
Petty Officer, 2nd-Class
Petty Officer, 1st-Class
Chief Petty Officer
Senior
Chief Petty Officer
Master Chief Petty Officer

Voyager Provisional Ranks:
Crewman (provisional)
Ensign (provisional)
Lieutenant J.G. (provisional)
Lieutenant (provisional)
Lieutenant Commander (provisional)

Commander (provisional)
Captain (provisional)


The Next Generation Officer Ranks:
Ensign
Lieutenant J.G.
Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Captain

Deputy Director

Rear Admiral (Lower Half)
Rear Admiral (Upper Half)
Vice Admiral
Admiral


Red: 100% Canon; seen on-screen
Violet: Rare...

Notes: The Fleet Admiral rank can be discarded because in TNG/DS9/VOY it was a position, not a rank. Same thing for Fleet Captain. The Commodore rank was apparently renamed to Rear Admiral Lower Half as it was by the US Navy before TNG launched. The rank was never mentioned in the post-TOS era after all.

If this is too much I'll probably just remove the provisional ranks, because NCO ranks have a much higher priority imo.


#2 Scooter

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 10:00 PM

LOL red = blue.

If possible, it would be awesome if the "looking down the barrel" stance could be used as a sort of iron-sights when you click the right-mouse button instead of having an alt-fire mode.

I feel the need to say some things about those ranks you posted. You're free to do what you want, but I don't want others to be mis-informed.

Deputy Director is not a rank between Captain and Commodore, it's more of a job title, similar to how the Commandant of Starfleet Academy is called Commandant but that's not his rank. Regarding the bar below the pips, my best guess is that it signifies a person's belonging to Starfleet Intelligence as opposed to the Fleet Operations Division.

It is a common assumption that Commodore was renamed to Rear Admiral Lower Half, but know that this is purely conjecture. Just because the US Navy did it doesn't necessarily mean that Starfleet did too. They are separate entities operating several hundred years apart. It is correct to say that the rank has not been mentioned from TNG onward, but note carefully that the rank of Lieutenant Junior Grade was not mentioned at all on Voyager. Just because nobody mentions it doesn't mean it's gone. You may be surprised to hear that we actually did see two Commodores in the first season of TNG. They were referred to as Admirals because Commodores are part of the admiralty, just like Lieutenant Commanders are often referred to merely as Commander. That doesn't mean that Lieutenant Commander has been renamed to Commander Lower Half. Commodores were more prevalent during the TOS-era because of the way the fleet was organized prior to 2350; now they are relegated to the smaller starbases in core sectors where things are fairly unexciting. (more on fleet organization in a bit)

Likewise, Fleet Captain hasn't been mentioned since TOS, but that's not to say the rank has been dropped. It's an honorary-type rank bestowed upon Captains who have fought in great wars, so most officers bypass it. IMHO Picard should have been promoted to Fleet Captain by now, though it has been suggested by some that Starfleet retired the rank of Fleet Captain following the disappearance of Fleet Captain Pike in 2266.

I've saved the Fleet Admiral issue for last because it's the one that's gotten bungled up the most. People have a tough time wrapping their head around it because we've seen a lot of admirals called Fleet Admiral, and not all of them have the same number of pips. The solution is actually quite simple once you understand how Starfleet organizes their ships. Starfleet has more than 1000 ships, organized into Fleets. Most fleets consist of between 150 and 200 ships, under the command of an admiral who is often referred to by their title of fleet admiral, though in most cases this is not their rank. Most admirals in command of fleets are Vice Admirals and Rear Admirals (depending on the importance of the fleet). When it is necessary for ships within a fleet to work together very closely, they will commonly be grouped into a task force commanded by a lower-ranking admiral than the fleet admiral, or even a captain of one of the ships (eg. Picard and the tachyon detection grid) if there is not enough time to send a lower-ranking admiral. (Prior to 2350, the smaller task forces were used exclusively, with each under the supervision of a Commodore or Rear Admiral.) Some fleets are assigned to a particular area of space, while others are assigned to certain duties. There are also highly-specialized fleets devoted to one particular duty, such as colonization. Anyways, the confusion about Fleet Admirals is the distinction between the rank of Fleet Admiral and the position of fleet admiral. The position of fleet admiral is the admiral in charge of a fleet of ships that I was just mentioning. The rank of Fleet Admiral is for admirals in charge of Starfleet as a whole.

#3 TiM

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 02:43 AM

Hrmmm....... Well, when you crouch, it does that pose at least. :)

Have you tried the 'alert' emote? I can't remember if I made it do that by default...
If it doesn't, do you think that would look better for the rifle's 'alert' pose?

Yeah... since in RPG-X v1 the ranks were set up as flags so you could pick and choose which ranks were active, it meant that you could only do 16 ranks, possibly 32 with some special coding (Though I'd need to confirm this).

I've disabled that code though, which means that the way ranks are stored is different now, and it means I can set the limit higher.

At the moment, it can support 128 ranks. :P This is an idiotically high number, so it's one I hope people will never try to hit, but it should allow for a much wider range of ranks.

-TiM

#4 Marcin

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 10:05 AM

No the alert mode doesn't do that. It would be cool as a second alert mode.
Ok cool 128 ranks :P

@Scooter: Well both Memory Alpha and Wikipedia confirm that the Commodore rank was gone so I'm still not sure. You're probably right about the fleet admiral stuff (i know it is a title though I didn't know it was a rank too). Btw, I feel that fleet admiral as rank is a bit overused by roleplay groups. But i'll just add all of them because there is enough space for them anyway, even if they aren't 100% cannon (so fleet admiral, fleet captain and commodore too). Omg I forgot the cadet ranks :)

#5 Marcin

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 10:21 AM

And TiM, where are the equipment boltons in the beta? Or are they incompatible with the animation system?

#6 SimmerALPHA

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:25 AM

According to Memory-Alpha Starfleet has the following ranks:

Fleet admiral - Listed as both a rank and a title
Admiral
Vice admiral
Rear admiral
Rear admiral lower half - Listed as having replaced commodore
Deputy director - On DS9 no one found it weird so let's call it a real rank
Captain
Commander
Provisional Commander
Lieutenant Commander
Provisional Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant
Provisional Lieutenant
Lieutenant J.G.
Provisional Lieutenant J.G.
Ensign
Provisional Ensign
Recruit - An officer-in-training at Starfleet Command
Cadet 1st class
Cadet 2nd class
Cadet 3rd class
Cadet 4th class
Master chief petty officer
Senior chief petty officer
Chief petty officer
Petty officer first class
Petty officer second class
Petty officer third class
Crewman

#7 TiM

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 02:41 PM

Uh... hrmmm okay... I'll have a look at a second alert phase with the players holding all the weapons up to their eyes.

Aw... crap. I forgot to include it in the Controls UI.... :)

Um, it's enabled through the '/equip' command in the console anyway.

Okay... back to the UI now haha.

-TiM

#8 Marcin

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:28 PM

Ok cool :P. Looks weird on admins though :)
I assume you're also going to add the phaser-aiming animation to the second alert mode?
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#9 TiM

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 03:54 PM

Haha yeah... I made it based on what weapons you have as opposed to class when I made the new class system. :)

To counter this, I made it that if you do 'give <weapon>' on someone who already has it, it takes it off them, so you can configure that to a degree there.

Lol, okay, I'll add that too.

-TiM

#10 Scooter

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 04:24 PM

Well both Memory Alpha and Wikipedia confirm that the Commodore rank was gone so I'm still not sure.


According to Memory-Alpha Starfleet has the following ranks


Memory Alpha and Wikipedia are not authoritative sources. They both are very useful and have some very good articles, but many articles contain incorrect information. As I mentioned earlier (or at least I think I did), certain speculations have become widely accepted by the masses and people are accepting them as canon for some strange reason. It's kind of ironic, because they demand rigorous proofs from anyone who challenges them, but they have no proofs for what they accept as true. The same people who reject Fleet Captain and Commodore because we haven't seen them recently are accepting a whole crapload of enlisted ranks that we've never seen EVER.

I've spent more than a decade researching this topic, and in case you're interested here's the rank list I've reached.

Cadet 4th Class
Cadet 3rd Class
Cadet 2nd Class
Cadet 1st Class


Crewman
Crewman 1st Class
Specialist 3rd Class
Specialist 2nd Class
Specialist 1st Class
Chief Specialist
Senior Chief Specialist

Ensign
Lieutenant Junior Grade
Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Captain
Fleet Captain

Commodore
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral

I've been planning to do a huge write-up to go with it, but I keep getting bogged down with other things. I'll just say a few brief words about the enlisted ranks. Most of the evidence I could find from canonical sources indicated that the commonly accepted enlisted ranks were wrong. Any evidence supporting was not strong enough. What tipped me off was one of O'Brien's lines on DS9 where he says he is a Senior Chief Specialist. His transfer to DS9 was in conjunction with a promotion, so in TNG he was most likely a Chief Specialist. This explains why he was called Chief. The rest fell into place while I was looking at the rank system used by the US Marine Corps. Although it seemed like the puzzle had some pieces missing, when you see the picture on the box it all fits together and makes sense.

#11 Marcin

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 05:14 PM

Huh? O'Brien has been called "Chief Petty Officer" in the DS9 episode "Hippocratic Oath" so I assume the rest of the NCO ranks are pretty canon too...

#12 Scooter

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 07:10 PM

Interesting, I've never been pointed to that episode until now. In a prior DS9 episode, "Shadowplay", O'Brien calls himself "Senior Chief Specialist Miles Edward O'Brien". That's a little more reliable than the words of a Jem'Hadar soldier who is seeing O'Brien for the first time.

O'Brien has been referred to by numerous ranks over the years. Not all of them can be correct. Senior Chief Specialist is the most logical. It's very clear that some of the writers of DS9 were trying to bring Chief Petty Officer into the canon, but the evidence they present in each case is not strong enough to overcome the evidence against.

#13 Marcin

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 08:38 PM

Miles O'Brien was also called Chief Petty Officer in the TNG episode "Family". It's true that his ranks have some continuity errors though.

#14 Jake Conhale

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:31 PM

I still find contention with Senior Chief Specialist being a standard rank.

Not to mention that comes from one line of dialogue from late season 2, vs the 18 different episodes where "Chief of Operations" is mentioned and 2 seperate episodes with "Chief Petty Officer" in dialogue.

Specific Citations:

"Senior Chief Specialist"
  • Shadowplay
"Chief of Operations"
  • The Siege
  • Armageddon game
  • Tribunal
  • The Search pt 2
  • Looking for par'Mach in all the wrong places
  • Crossover
  • Crossfire
  • Second Sight
  • The Forsaken
  • Treachery, Faith, and the Great River
  • Whispers
  • Profit and Loss
  • Captive Pursuit
  • Destiny
  • Shakaar
  • In the Hands of the Prophets
  • Take me Out to the Holosuite
  • The House of Quark
"Chief Petty Officer"
  • Hippocratic Oath
  • Valiant
It should be noted in Valiant, it was a member of Red Squad who wore the same insignia as Miles and identified herself as an acting Chief Petty Officer.

Also, Senior Chief Specialist has no contradiction with a petty officer rank, Senior Chief Petty Officer, whose job title is "specialist"

Main problem is that he's never referred to as a Senior Chief anywhere else by anyone or anything, only chief.

As for the promotion thing, promotion doesn't always mean a change of insignia. Going from being a transporter operator to being chief engineer of a space station may classify to some as a promotion, as its a position of more responsibilities and more prominence.

Chief of Operations would conform to current conventions with Chief Petty Officer, the chief indicating rank coupled with his position. Thus, Chief Transporter Operator means Chief Petty Officer assigned to running a transporter, Chief of Operations means Chief Petty Officer assigned to Operations.

Chief Petty Officer or Chief Specialist, if they are a high enough grade, would allow for the other officers refered to as Chief on TNG, I'd assume the Transporter operators would be incharge of the entire subsystem, having the competence to have reached that level while leaving the commissioned officers for more command positions. The Specialist could also follow the current Petty Officer naming convention, rank and position, so that could work as well.

But I can't find more than one reference to "Senior Chief" throughout the searchable transcripts of twiztv.com, though it doesn't cover Voyager, so there may be instances I'm not aware of, but even so.

I also have to say that if a Jem'Hadar even knew of a petty officer rank, then it would give some credance to the title, as I can't imagine them associating a rank to starfleet unless it was actually in service, even with the potential for incorrect insignia. They didn't seem avid historians after all.

To summarize: Chief Petty officer was mentioned more times than Senior Chief Specialist, there is no other evidence of the "Senior" title throughout DS9, and O'Brian's titles in TNG and DS9 conform to current conventions for Chief Petty Officer. Even allowing for the fact Star Trek's rank structure isn't a modern one, modern ranks are inspiration for the Star Trek ones.

Occam's razor: Chief Petty Officer has more weight to it

I await your rebuttal.
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#15 SimmerALPHA

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:55 AM

Memory Alpha and Wikipedia are not authoritative sources. They both are very useful and have some very good articles, but many articles contain incorrect information. As I mentioned earlier (or at least I think I did), certain speculations have become widely accepted by the masses and people are accepting them as canon for some strange reason.


I'd like to hear some of these speculations-turned-canon just because I'm interesed. I do agree that an open wiki can never be completly fool proof but it is THE Trek encyclopedia online and it has some good contributors.

What did you do with Deputy Director, Scoot?

#16 Marcin

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:44 AM

Isn't "Chief of Operations" a position, like "Chief of Security" and "Chief Engineer"? So it would be Valiant+Hippocratic Oath+Family vs. Shadowplay. And "specialist" was used as a title too.

#17 Scooter

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 04:23 PM

Chief of Operations is a position, as turbomarcin said. It's not a rank.

The girl in Valiant was given her rank of Chief Petty Officer by her fellow cadet who had been battlefield promoted to Captain. Since he's in charge, he could do whatever he wanted. He may have been a history buff and chose the rank for her for that reason. Regardless, it's a pretty shitty deal for her to be anything less than Ensign.

Here's your case precedence for Specialist being a rank; I mistakenly said it was from USMC, but actually it's from the US Army:
http://en.wikipedia....ecialist_(rank)

In my own mind, it makes more sense to have ranks based on experience and knowledge, than merely pay grades which aren't even applicable in the 24th century.

Main problem is that he's never referred to as a Senior Chief anywhere else by anyone or anything, only chief.


That shouldn't bother you anymore when you think of all the Lieutenant Commanders who were called Commander.

As for the promotion thing, promotion doesn't always mean a change of insignia. Going from being a transporter operator to being chief engineer of a space station may classify to some as a promotion, as its a position of more responsibilities and more prominence.


What you're describing has always been referred to as a transfer. Lower-ranking officers get transferred a few times a year. Even if you get transferred to the flagship, you wouldn't say you were promoted unless you actually got promoted.

Chief of Operations would conform to current conventions with Chief Petty Officer, the chief indicating rank coupled with his position. Thus, Chief Transporter Operator means Chief Petty Officer assigned to running a transporter


Replace all instances of Chief Petty Officer with Chief Specialist. It works both ways so this point can't be debated.

I'd assume the Transporter operators would be incharge of the entire subsystem, having the competence to have reached that level while leaving the commissioned officers for more command positions.


This was exactly how people regarded O'Brien during part of TNG. They assumed he was Chief of Transporter operators, in charge of the entire subsystem. And then Chief Brossmer came along, as well as another nameless guy who was referred to as Chief. Since you can't have all three of them as chief of the subsystem, that must mean the assumption was incorrect. In actuality, all of them held the rank of Chief Specialist. Now, although O'Brien was not Chief of Transporter Operators, it would not be entirely wrong to call him Chief Transporter Operator - this is called his rate.

To understand the difference between rank and rate, I present to you Sensor Analyst Third Class Tal Celes, our Bajoran friend from Voyager. Her rank is Specialist Third Class, and her rate is Sensor Analyst Third Class. The word "specialist" is substituted with "sensor analyst" to indicate what her specialty is. Voyager is a pretty small ship, but on larger ships, knowing everyone on board is difficult. By identifying themselves by their rate, specialists indicate to higher-ranking officers what they are capable of. Crewmen and Crewmen First Class are merely crewmen because they have not yet chosen a speciality.

But I can't find more than one reference to "Senior Chief" throughout the searchable transcripts of twiztv.com, though it doesn't cover Voyager, so there may be instances I'm not aware of, but even so.


Voyager never makes any reference to petty officers or anything similar. All enlisted personnel have no insignia on their collar. The only episode we get more detailed info is "Good Shepherd". If Starfleet really did have ranks such as chief petty officer, et al., we should have seen somebody with insignia similar to O'Brien's, but we didn't. For me, this is the nail in the coffin.

I'd like to hear some of these speculations-turned-canon just because I'm interesed. I do agree that an open wiki can never be completly fool proof but it is THE Trek encyclopedia online and it has some good contributors.

What did you do with Deputy Director, Scoot?


I pretty much listed them all in above posts. As for Deputy Director, the most likely answer to me is that it is his title. Starfleet Intelligence doesn't have ships of their own; their people are spread out. Above Sloan would be a Director, most likely five pips with bar underneath, and above that the admiralty (eg. Rear Admiral Erik Pressman). If Starfleet Intelligence uses a similar rank system to the CIA, underneath Sloan would be some Executive Directors (three pips with bar underneath). The bar is worn to signify they are with SFI so that Fleet Ops Division officers know that they operate under a different authority. That is to say, each has different responsibilities: one to the safety of the ship and crew, the other to the safety of the Federation. This affects whether or not they accept orders from each other.

#18 Jake Conhale

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 07:57 PM

I have no argument about the ranks being based on experience and skill, thats how they should be distributed anyways, with pay (if there is any) indicative of the value of that person. Starfleet doesn't have money after all (though they can always clear their tabs at Quarks...)

as for the promotion issue: Granted Star Trek only used the term promotion in regards to two (possibly three) situations where a change in position rather than a change in rank, though the situations themselves were suitably ambiguous that I can't definitively argue the point. It's a matter of definitions after all.

Clarification: What I meant by O'Brian being incharge of the entire subsystem meant not every transporter on the ship, instead i meant that he was incharge of all systems and subsystems relating to either that specific transporter room or a specific selection of the rooms.

I'd guess that transporter cluster (forget the deck number) with rooms 1-4 is his assignment, which allows for him to have a favorite transporter room while allowing for other Chief Transporter Operators for the other clusters. The Enterprise did, apparently, have at least 20 transporter rooms from when they evacuated in 11001001. This follows for the rate of Chief Specialist or Chief Petty Officer, creating Chief Transporter Operator. I am familiar with the definition of rate, and this would work in either case.

Specific example:
As for Voyager: I make claim that the show was not indicative of the lack of the rank. It was a small ship, with approximately 150 crew, raising the question if it would be large enough to warrent such a senior enlisted officer. The military, after all, distributes officers based on experience requirements and/or size of the contingient: so many of Rank A for Rank B to be present, so many of rank B for rank C to be present. This can be demonstrated with Sisko and Cavitt being Lt. Commanders vs Riker being a full commander.

My point with Voyager was that I couldn't check it to see if there was mention of the Senior Chief there.

Voyager never makes any reference to petty officers or anything similar. All enlisted personnel have no insignia on their collar. The only episode we get more detailed info is "Good Shepherd". If Starfleet really did have ranks such as chief petty officer, et al., we should have seen somebody with insignia similar to O'Brien's, but we didn't. For me, this is the nail in the coffin.

I'm not completely sure what to make of this, as the insignia would be the same for either title, whichever exists. and we DID see someone else with insignia similar to O'Brian, the cadet who is described in the script as a CPO and identifies herself as a CPO.

The girl in Valiant was given her rank of Chief Petty Officer by her fellow cadet who had been battlefield promoted to Captain. Since he's in charge, he could do whatever he wanted. He may have been a history buff and chose the rank for her for that reason. Regardless, it's a pretty shitty deal for her to be anything less than Ensign.

What's your point then, that her title was given as a reference to history rather than the proper title you propose for O'Brian's insignia? Quite frankly that strikes me as a cop out.

That shouldn't bother you anymore when you think of all the Lieutenant Commanders who were called Commander.

I find it slightly irksome of the idea of having a Senior Chief being refered to only as Chief, but no big issue, that issue stems mainly from the seniority of Senior Chief Petty Officer from the US Navy, which Starfleet is not. However, I find it intriguing that on the two instances where a person's rank is clearly identified based on that insignia the "Senior" part is left off.

Lt. Commander is shortened to Commander cept when for formalities or to distinguish between a Commander and a Lt. Cmdr, but even then there is a difference in insignia. If O'Brian's rank was Senior anything, then I can only conclude that the insignia doesn't display such, which strikes me that the Super is more rate than rank. But shouldn't rate follow rank rather than bracketing it?


However, the Senior classification would explain the two dots on O'Brian's insignia, and the dots would be difficult to distinguish, so the Jem'Hadar could have mistaken it, and without seeing the Cadet's insignia clearly, I can't confirm or deny the presence of the dot, so her insignia could have been different, allowing the two different ranks.

So, alright, Senior, yes, I am willing to concede that. I still hold fast to the "Chief Petty Officer" part rather than "Chief Specialist"
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#19 Kori Barnes

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:39 PM

Chakotay was referred to command when his provincial rank was Lt. Commander, B'lanna was refereed to Lieutenant when her Prov. rank was Lt. Jg.

Just pointing that out.

I like your Idea for the different ranks sounds awesome.
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#20 Scooter

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:14 PM

As for Voyager: I make claim that the show was not indicative of the lack of the rank. It was a small ship, with approximately 150 crew, raising the question if it would be large enough to warrent such a senior enlisted officer. The military, after all, distributes officers based on experience requirements and/or size of the contingient: so many of Rank A for Rank B to be present, so many of rank B for rank C to be present.


I've heard that distribution stuff mentioned by a few people in my travels. I don't know enough about the percentages to explore it, but it sounds like a really interesting special topic for determining the ranks of everyone on board a ship.

Consider though, that even if there are only the most junior enlisted crew on Voyager, none of them bear any insignia. Depending on which rank system you subscribe to, Tal Celes was either a Specialist 3rd Class, or a Petty Officer 3rd Class, but she also bore no insignia. Under the rank system I am suggesting, there is no insignia for enlisted crew, but under the commonly accepted rank system, you've got a problem.




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